Curse

wuzzman · Sep 10, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

Wuzzman you have no clue at all, why do you talk as if you know what you're talking about? If you has any decent experience at a reasonably high level of gvg, you would know what's skilled about it. Its pointless trying to explain stuff to you, but to give you an example - when reno hexway first became popular, you would often see guild at around r300-400 shoot to r100-200 in a week simply by changing to hexway. They hadnt improve as players or as a team but won more due to the build needing less skill.

The fact you even ask what's skilled about the meta compared to hex meta shows how little you know or understand about gvg.

Not only did you not address the issue but you flame what I didn't even say(when did I even mention "Hezzors are elite man!!")? LOl, so this is what so called "high level pvp'ers" do with their time. Displaying how much they don't know to read a simple post... anyway what is so special about the wait-for-vod meta? To say "well geez you think hexway is elite" is like saying in a HA forum, " Killcount shouldn't be eliminated because alter holding is suxor." Your argument, wait flame, is of no relevance to what I posted.

what is so special about occasional rainbow spiking through 75% block rates? Is shatter enchantments a complicated skill to use now?

Now concerning the useless skills and such. Ultimately even if you do make all skills GvG useable, how many players would like that? Balance has always been what the players want to play and thus consider balanced. A predictable unchanging meta is just easier. If I was playing rock for 3 months, and then some kid out there came out with paper, do you really think I bother learning scissors when I know scissors gets wtf owned by rock? Just nerf paper, and let everyone keep playing rock. Diversity has always been an underated value. Maybe sprint instead of rush on a hammer or axe warrior, devasting hammer instead of backbreaker, or various other flavors according to personally choice but never the less the same build. To change that would just bring huge knee jerk nerfing like as usual.

twicky_kid · Sep 11, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

If your party is taking damage faster than you can heal it, isn't that the definition of being pressured out? How does "having more time to lod" have anything to do with it?

That extra 50-70 life effectively removed condition degen from the meta. Hexes are still viable because the removal isn't on par as condition removal. Slap on top of that, LoD that heals for more than Heal Party did, completely sustainable with no energy management, and doesn't get interrupted nearly as much as Heal Party did.

Neo the passive def does come into play but if you take LoD out of the picture it would be much more manageable. Its just one piece of a bigger problem. Blockwars also stops condition degen but LoD puts the last nail in the coffin.

Living Parasite · Sep 11, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

That extra 50-70 life effectively removed condition degen from the meta.

That effected it little. LoD had much more of an impact. LoD is too strong against condition pressure as it can energy effeciently counter degen.

And, the reason why Guildwars is so defensive atm is because let's face it, melee when left unchecked is too strong. Strong enough that you have to take MULTIPLE sources of miss to mitigate the pressure. It is more energy effective to mitigate the damage than to heal/protect it. (Although SoD is pretty good at it vs. trains)

Thomas.knbk · Sep 11, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

That extra 50-70 life effectively removed condition degen from the meta.

obsed be team lately? condi pressure is still pretty powerful, but it's a r/p/s game because you rely on them not having mirror of disenchant

twicky_kid · Sep 11, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

That effected it little. LoD had much more of an impact. LoD is too strong against condition pressure as it can energy effeciently counter degen.

And, the reason why Guildwars is so defensive atm is because let's face it, melee when left unchecked is too strong. Strong enough that you have to take MULTIPLE sources of miss to mitigate the pressure. It is more energy effective to mitigate the damage than to heal/protect it. (Although SoD is pretty good at it vs. trains)

Conditions degen was being pushed out before LoD became meta.

As far as melee being OP. Aggressive Refrain and Mel's dervish is OP. I don't think anyone has been calling for a nerf on wars for a very long time.

Paragons add a lot of pressure on top of adding def abilities that cannot be removed and a built in energy engine. Mel's dervish cannot be counted with the exception of interruption and hexes. The number of counters are few and far between which is why they are OP.

Warriors are fine IMO. The bar hasn't really changed since Prophecies. 1 skill on the bar has always been flexible but that's about it. I wouldn't lump all melee or physical dmg into the same pot because they are very much different.

Byron · Sep 11, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

*Obnoxious buzzer sounds*

Wrong. The correct answer?

Double Aegis + Defensive Anthem + Blinding Surge + Ward Against Melee + Watch Yourself + Shields Up + Shield of Deflection + Light of Delieverance + Blurred Vision + ~4 hard targets.

All in one build.

You forgot guardian on the flagger.

Bio-Flame · Sep 11, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

And yet, people still get kills.
I wonder why?

Greedy Gus · Sep 11, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

Now concerning the useless skills and such. Ultimately even if you do make all skills GvG useable, how many players would like that? Balance has always been what the players want to play and thus consider balanced. A predictable unchanging meta is just easier. If I was playing rock for 3 months, and then some kid out there came out with paper, do you really think I bother learning scissors when I know scissors gets wtf owned by rock? Just nerf paper, and let everyone keep playing rock. Diversity has always been an underated value. Maybe sprint instead of rush on a hammer or axe warrior, devasting hammer instead of backbreaker, or various other flavors according to personally choice but never the less the same build.

Definitely agree here, this is similar to what I was trying to say 2 pages ago. The game would be so much better if they stopped crying about diversity, and just focused balancing on making rock vs. rock fun, exciting gameplay that rewards player skill. People think that means everyone has to run the same build, but there is room for diversity based on playstyle; like a team preferring to run slightly more offense, someone else liking condi-pressure, one team liking old EnS hexes build, maybe one spikes for kills due to a good caller, etc.

Zuranthium · Sep 11, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Shadow prison promotes stupid splitting, which doesn't really accomplish anything. Shadow stepping has always been splitting for scrubs.

You should explain this more because that does not make sense. Doesn't accomplish anything? You mean as in it's bad for the game or the split itself doesn't do anything. The latter is certainly not true.

And apparently everyone is a scrub? So many good guilds have run a Sin split at some point. iQ ran a Sin split yesterday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Aura of Displacement is far better than Shadow Prison if you want a split shadowstep.

For a solo-split Sin, sure. SP shines more in other types of splits. Running 1 of each can be good too.

~Z

Seamus Finn · Sep 11, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

And apparently everyone is a scrub? So many good guilds have run a Sin split at some point. iQ ran a Sin split yesterday.

~Z

Shadow Prison splits are basically the easiest 5 - 3 split in the game and punish poor enemy movement extremely well. And no offense, but a guild like iQ has never really been about doing things "the hard way" but more "the smart way". They wanted to run split, so they ran a split that is as effective as it is easy to micro(they are really better known for the macro-ing anyhow).

I don't think that the Shadow Prison is really what makes the sin splits "scrubby." For me, it is the rest of the bar - an IAS, maybe expose defenses, and the rest comprise a huge attack chain(i think they are now up to 5 attacks -- black mantis, leaping mantis, trampling ox, golden spider, twisting fangs). The characters just end up rolling fixed dice and see if they will get a kill since they have no useful utility and very few good plays to make other than just killing something every 20 secs.

Thomas.knbk · Sep 11, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio-Flame

And yet, people still get kills.
I wonder why?

because of VoD right?

wuzzman · Sep 11, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

"why things still die by Bio-Flame"

Its because all kills are 100% due to spike. SHatter Enchantment + Lightning Orb auto 250+ damage, + deep wound from like 3 sources, and the pressing whatever skill listed on "2". Considering both teams have probably 2 rezes each, how long it is to gain adrenline for a spike, and other various things that can happen like shutdown or people sitting in wards or DA being up...yeah, sure people die, but no one is moving from the flag stand.

Ec]-[oMaN · Sep 11, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

"why things still die by Bio-Flame"

Its because all kills are 100% due to spike. SHatter Enchantment + Lightning Orb auto 250+ damage, + deep wound from like 3 sources, and the pressing whatever skill listed on "2". Considering both teams have probably 2 rezes each, how long it is to gain adrenline for a spike, and other various things that can happen like shutdown or people sitting in wards or DA being up...yeah, sure people die, but no one is moving from the flag stand.

Then gogo, some taint, humility,mindblast, and quit your bitchin?

wuzzman · Sep 11, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

WOOT WOOT!!! Premission to heroway.

Ceylon Tea Cat · Sep 12, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I don't think that the Shadow Prison is really what makes the sin splits "scrubby." For me, it is the rest of the bar - an IAS, maybe expose defenses, and the rest comprise a huge attack chain(i think they are now up to 5 attacks -- black mantis, leaping mantis, trampling ox, golden spider, twisting fangs). The characters just end up rolling fixed dice and see if they will get a kill since they have no useful utility and very few good plays to make other than just killing something every 20 secs.

Then why so many guilds now got 2 sins in their team now?

They not only got chance to kill something every 20 secs..
There're other teamates' hexes also let them could start combo.

high dmg.+slow+deep wound+knock down+posion(or cripple).
Sins just need to press 5~6 keys to make such effects above, in 3 seconds(even less).
Easy, isn't it?

Maybe they should change those hex-trigger skill to sin's hexes only.
Cuz they have their own ultra-Elite hex: shadow prison.

Byron · Sep 12, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceylon Tea Cat

Then why so many guilds now got 2 sins in their team now?

2 sins on a hex team pretty much require 2 necros to be effective. If the enemy physicals aren't on lockdown, your sins are going to get spiked to hell and rack up DP. That said, I think 2 sins at stand are baeeed.

As for the previous thread topic: A good build will have both pressure and spikes. Isn't that common sense? Simply pressure will fail to LoD, and simply spike will fail to prots, unless you can run one or the other really well (or bloodspike). Building a balanced team with the intent of one or the other is probably a bad idea.

Um Yeah · Sep 12, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

It's funny how many people say they know how to pressure, when all that's left in obs mode is 3,2,1's called every 30s instead of the 40s from a few months ago. A step up I guess... A lot of people say things to make themselves sound smarter with regards to gvg to other people on forums or in game, but do they practice what they preach? Ofc not! That takes effort that obviously isn't needed to become a top guild these days. Every once in awhile people try to punish positioning/transitional periods for the other team, but it usually ends up with just 2 warrs who had had saved up adren unloading on the same target with little success. Hard to cast orbs without someone telling you when to do so I guess, huh?

Pressure doesn't fail to LoD, imo it fails to a web of passive defense in which any damage that does get through gets healed by LoD. Since shutdown is nearly all gone from the game by now (just because you have a mes and a ranger or 2 mes's, it doesn't mean they're doing anything worthwhile, or at least that they couldn't be a lot better at actually accomplishing anything aka stop spamming diversion under MoR trying to randomly catch bsurge/lod faggots), pressure is nearly impossible. Effective shutdown is needed to get through the passive defense present since NF. My only guess is "top guilds" now have reverted to spikes (or maybe all the guilds that could effectively pressure left so all that's left is the former rank 200 guilds?) because a.) it's the easiest way to possibly generate a kill, b.) multiple enchant removals+lotsssss of armor ignoring damage can power through part of the passive defense and the prots present in current "balanced" builds, and c.) all the monks/midliners left in the game are so shitty they fall apart to that level of play.

I don't really keep up with these threads so maybe somebody already said something similar to this, but anyway this is my opinion of the state of pvp. Obviously there may be an exception or two left playing this game, but it's not enough to redeem 98-99% of the top 100 guilds from sucking balls.

pah01 · Sep 13, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

one thing that does annoy me is the fact that i have to agree with the above poster to a point.

I do think that a lot of the very best players have left, but the fact that i have seen players in current top guilds beat the previous guilds in matches means that they arent that bad.

I would ask you to read ensigns where balance went awry thread from a little while back before stating that the current guilds do not know how to pressure. There is a lot more shit out there to pressure through than before and all of its more powerful than before.

Joe

twicky_kid · Sep 13, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I would ask you to read ensigns where balance went awry thread from a little while back before stating that the current guilds do not know how to pressure. There is a lot more shit out there to pressure through than before and all of its more powerful than before.

Joe

I agree but on the flip side Defesive skills are even MORE powerful than the power creep on offensive skills.

Bankai · Sep 13, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

I think that the biggest problem-causers are Paragons and Dervishes (Melandru's, ofcourse). Paragons give the same defensive power as a warder, for example, but also provide a LOT of pressure, unlike warders. Furthermore, they can easily join in on spikes (orb drains your energy quickly and obs flame has that nasty exhaustion). Also, paragons have quite a lot of skills with insane defensive properties but with long recharge (Danthem, Stand your ground), promoting the use of 2 paragons. Which is bad. As said on the discussion on Izzy's wiki page (rodgort's discussion), it's a much better way to give something a long casting time or a big energy cost than to give it a long recharge. This means that, hypothetically, you could keep it up on one paragon, but it'd be very risky as you're essentially devoting an entire character to one skill. This would make paragons more frail.

Melandru's is another nasty one. Basically, there are three ways to shut down melee. Hexes, conditions, and other stuff like ward against foes and backlining. Melandru's basically eliminates both conditions and the 'other stuff' part, because it can't be killed when over-extending. This leaves hexes, which were primarily used as a counter versus Melandru's (plus they rocked), but they were nerfed since hexes are baaaeeed.

To fix Melandru, make it weak to one of the ways to get rid of Melee. Either give it back the +200 but allow blind, cripple and weakness, or get rid of the +100 and make it suspectible to all conditions but blind, cripple and weakness.